A question for John

[חַיָּל]

I would like to reply to your post, John, but I don't see where/how. If you are willing to continue this discussion, please inform me how to make a response. Thanks.

After reading some of your articles on the main page, it is my understanding (therefore, please correct me if I have misunderstood) that you do not believe the talmidei Yeshua, whether Gentile or Jew, should obey the Torah. By "Torah," I am referring to the commandments promulgated to corporate Israel at Sinai.

Myself, I believe there is one Torah for both Gentile and Jew. Mind you, I have not come to this conclusion lightly.

I believe the Bible does not contradict itself and that "all scripture is profitable for doctrine" (2 Tim. 3:15-16). I am aware that you quoted this particular verse in one of your articles, but then you proceeded to deny the Torah should be obeyed. How is that possible?

If all scripture is profitable for doctrine (teaching), and if Paul was obviously referring to the Tenakh, then how can one possibly say that the Torah does not need to be obeyed by the Israel of God? Did not both Yeshua and Paul always preach from the Law and Prophets on Shabbath?

Actually, just nevermind all that.

I have one question for you, John. Just one.

I want to direct you to the prophet Yeshiyahu in chapter 2:

In v. 2, he begins, "in the last days." I do not believe that phrase requires explanantion. It has yet to come, and the scripture proves why.

It continues, "the mountain of YHVH's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

This has never occurred before; therefore, we know that Yeshiyahu's prophesy has not yet come to fruition.

In v. 3, he states, "And many people shall go and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of YHVH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and, He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths, for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

In summary, Yeshiyahu states that "in the last days...the Torah shall go forth out of Zion and the word of YHVH from Jerusalem." Coincidentally, God (the Messiah) "will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths."

If the Torah is not to be obeyed, then why does it go forth from Zion "in the last days"?

Either the Torah is to be obeyed [still], or Isaiah is a false prophet.

Why are sacrifices present in the Millennial Kingdom (Ezek. 40-48)?
Why will all flesh come to worship YHVH on the New Moon and Sabbaths in the Millennium (Isa. 66:23)?

[admin]

Shalom Kyle (Chayall),

I have written about this before, and I will repeat it again for your sake: "Torah" should not be equated with the terms of the covenant made at Sinai (i.e., the sefer habrit sprinkled with animal blood and ratified by the 70 zekanim of Israel), but rather is a function of God's covenantal acts in history... Since Yeshua is the one who instituted the New Covenant, Torah must be understood in relation to Him and His saving work -- not in relation to Moses (who prophesied that the Mashiach would come), and certainly not in relation to the sages that rejected Yeshua after the destruction of the Temple....

Look, if you want to attempt to gain righteousness through adherence to the covenantal terms given at Sinai, you are at liberty to do so -- and also at liability. That covenant is still in effect, though those who attempt to abide by its terms shall be judged by it....

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now I have some questions for you.

First, exactly which commandments of the Torah are you referring to? Do you abide by Rambam's list of 613, for instance? Do you accept halakhic authority of the Sanhedrin? Do you submit to normative Judaism and the authority of the rabbis? If so, which ones and why?

What justification do you have for ignoring the required blood rituals of korbanot? Over 30% of the mitzvot in Torah is given in Vayikra (Leviticus) concerning the Levitical priesthood and its ministrations on behalf of Israel. If you claim to trust in Yeshua's bloodwork at Moriah, offered in the Holy of Holies made without hands, then please explain the relationship between shadow and substance in the previous Levitical offerings...

Do you advocate following the laws of niddah (Lev. 15:19-24)? Should we stone homosexuals(Lev. 20:13)? Circumcise on the 8th day as a token of being part of Israel? Do you want to practice slavery? Are you in favor of selling your daughter into slavery (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44)? Should we put children to death if they are shown to be rebellious(Deut 21:18-22), or should we reserve stoning for those who work on the Sabbath (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44)?

Do you advocate that we should release all debts for Shemittah? Do you advocate that we should revert to our inheritance on Yovel? Will you marry your brother's wife if he dies childless (Deut 25:5)? Should we go out and burn down all places of idolatry in our land (Deut 7:2, 12:2)?

Perhaps you draw the line at keeping kosher, or observing the Sabbath, or by the clothing you wear, insisting that we should only wear clothes that are free from shaatnez (Deut 22:11)? Should we stone those who blaspheme (Lev. 24:10-20) or burn to death those who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)? If you take a female prisoner of war and seduce her, do you advocate that she will become a slave with certain rights, but if you later dislike her, do you insist that you must grant her freedom (Deut. 21:11-15)? If the Levitical priesthood is still in effect, why are you not offering up sheep and goats on the altar of your assembly today?

Before I go any further with you on this issue, please answer each these questions, especially in light of the teaching found in the Books of Galatians, Hebrews, and Romans.

[admin]

I would like to reply to your post, John, but I don't see where/how. If you are willing to continue this discussion, please inform me how to make a response. Thanks.

Shalom Chayal,

This forum is for answering quick questions, not for discussions that require a lot of back and forth...

Since you seem to want a discussion here rather than an answer to a question, I would suggest that you post your topic in a forum -- perhaps under Messianic Halakhah -- and let others give you some feedback on the subject. I am far too busy to engage in a protracted discussion on the role of Torah observance -- esp. eschatologically -- with you at this time. If you really want to know what I think on the subject (rather than engage me in polemics), please visit my site, where I have literally hundreds of pages devoted to this very topic....

Thank you,

- John